Talk:Tamarian language
Stuff I added the external links, and thank you for putting them in the right place! "I will learn" and I think it should read, The Tamarian language "is" the spoken language of the Tamarians, IMO - STMK.... : Articles about non-objects/places are written in past tense. This is discussed Memory Alpha:Ten Forward#Article Tense|here. --Gvsualan 11:44, 26 May 2005 (UTC) : Additionally, when possible, use the "Show preview" button prior to your final save, so that you may review what you intend to save. This prevents any unnecessary saves, which otherwise consume a lot of unnecessary space. --Gvsualan 11:49, 26 May 2005 (UTC) The link to "Video of the Tamarian Language" points to a trailer for the "Darmok" episode, and contains no samples of Tamarian language. It ought to be moved to the page dealing with the episode. -- Guest 15:36, 13 Nov 2005 (UTC) External Language Sources Should we add as much information as possible from external sources such as http://rec.horus.at/startrek/lists/darmok.html? What if that site were to disappear? A lot of that information it contains about the Tamarian Language would disappear along with it. As a Star Trek encyclopedia, perhaps we should try to get all available external information into this one location. Thoughts? --Dogbreathcanada 23:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC) Kiyazi's children, their faces wet Someone changed the meaning of this one from "death, mourning" to "It's not serious, I will survive". The new edit is written in the wrong POV, but is the new definition correct? --Bp 09:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC) :It wasn't me who changed it, but I believe the second definition (It's not serious) is the correct one based on the gesture Dathon made as he said it. Am I right? Who knows? We can only guess. – Gotham23 21:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC) If you've ever seen a kid fall down, and then start wailing to get parental attention even though they're barely scraped... yeah, I'm betting this means something akin to, "it's only a flesh wound." "Kadir beneath Mo Moteh" possible alternate translation In the main article, the translation for "Kadir beneath Mo Moteh" is failure to communicate/ misunderstand. Given the two instances the phrase is spoken,one when the Tamarian first officer says it while laughing, the other Dathon mutters it, it could be interpreted as directed at an individual. Both instances it seems directed at Picard. In the first instance, Captain Dathon immediatly hushes his first officer with a stern "Temarc". When Dathon mutters it, his frustration with Picard's lack of understanding is rather plain. Given the metaphoric nature of the Tamarian language, it is quite possible that "Kadir beneath Mo Moteh" is a slight or insult roughly calling in to question the ability to grasp concepts. It could therefore be akin to the 20th century American slang expression "Boy, is this guy dense" Background note :The problem with a language based on metaphors is that at some point the stories behind the metaphors must be told in order for them to be understood. Picard was able to teach the Tamarian captain stories about Gilgamesh and Inkido, indicating that Tamarians can understand conventional syntax, but simply choose not to use it communicatively for some reason. This paragraph seems a bit too opinionated. Perhaps it could be reworded? --From Andoria with Love 03:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC) :You want to take a shot, be my guest. That's what happened in the episode though. A metaphorical language is nice enough as a plot device, but it has a great big gaping flaw, as I pointed out above.Capt Christopher Donovan 10:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC) Well, the thing with pointing out flaws is that it is essentially nitpicking, which isn't allowed. That's why I was suggesting it be reworded to be less of a POV and more... encyclopedic. ;) --From Andoria with Love 21:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC) :I'll give it a shot, but no promises. Just by bringing up the contradiction, it is going to sound "nitpicky" (though I disagree that pointing out flaws is such). Give me a few minutes and see what you think...Capt Christopher Donovan 21:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC) It still seems a bit nitpicky, but it's better. I'll let it slide. Shhhhh... ;) --From Andoria with Love 04:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC) ::I replaced the line (along with another about Tamarian engineering) with the explanations given in a short story from the TNG 20th anniversary anthology. 'I'm a law student, not a linguist', so I don't know if this covers all the practical problems with Tamarian. It is, however, better than fan speculation/nitpicking.– Cleanse 05:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC) Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel Someone defined this as "to work toward a common goal." But isn't that the definition of "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra?" Why would they need to create a new term for it? I'm positive that "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel" means "successful first contact between alien cultures," or "to establish peaceful relations," and I've changed the article. I left the alternative definition as acknowledgment that I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. What do others think? – Gotham23 21:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC) :Since it wasn't said specifically, we should be as broad as possible. In my opinion it was better the first way, but I'm not going to go and change it unless others think so.--31dot 23:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC) Inspirations Information on inspirations or connections to other SF would be welcome. For example, the Ascians in Gene Wolfe's The Citadel of the Autarch speak in an almost identical sort of language, but that novel precedes the cited episode by about a decade. (For the relevant excerpts from Citadel see http://probaleo.blogspot.com/2009/01/data-for-clai-2009-paper.html ) Is there a connection or is it just independent invention? -- 00:49, May 11, 2011 (UTC) Children of Tama Should we add "Children of Tama" to the list of definitions, translated as "Tamarian"? It seems appropriate to me, but I thought I'd bring it up here before I added it. - Mitchz95 04:35, January 15, 2012 (UTC) :Seems OK to me. --31dot 12:09, January 15, 2012 (UTC) Language Watching a replay of this episode on BBC America right now and wondering - is it really possible to have a language based on metaphor in the way the article explains? I'm not disputing that children could learn the meaning from context and experience - more that someone had to have read, understood, and possibly even written down again the story of Darmok in the first place. It obviously didn't spring full born out the head of the culture. Someone somewhere in Tamarian culture had to get why Darmok would be a good metaphor for him to even be USED as a metaphor. 06:42, June 15, 2013 (UTC) :This might be worth a read. - 07:09, June 15, 2013 (UTC) "Kalesh, when it rises!" I just watched the episode again (one of my favorites) and I have another opinion of the translation (big surprise)... When Riker and the Tamarian first mate were arguing, the Tamarian cut off transmission right after saying "Kalesh, when it rises!" To me, that imples that he wasn't willing to do anything until the next day (assuming that Kalesh is a star or moon of some sort). So basically he's saying, in a short, curt tone, probably because he's under orders he obviously dosn't agree with but is following anyway: "Don't talk to me about this until tomorrow!" (assuming that Kalesh rises daily; or some other period of time) What do you guys think? --AdmiralXizor (talk) 16:20, January 15, 2014 (UTC)AdmiralXizor Temarc Temarc I don't think Temarc just means silence. Perhaps it has to do with playing too much Oregon Trail but... "Temarc" means there is a division between two things. It could be two people, two ideas, etc. "The river Temarc." means nothing that can be done at present. "Temarc, the river Temarc in winter" means patience can overcome division... on the metaphorical idea that if one waits for winter, the river would freeze over and can then be crossed by walking over the ice, thus the objective is achieved. I think that makes the dialogue between the Tamarian captain and his first officer clearer as well as the dialogue between Picard and the first officer. The first time the Tamarian captain says/shouts "The river Temarc in winter" and holds up his hand, he is telling/reminding his first officer to stop laughing and be patient for the communication difficulties can be overcome with time. There is a definite pause between "Temarc" and "in winter" as if they are two separate sentences. It would mean something such as "Stop laughing/do nothing First Officer. Have patience." The second time the Tamarian captain says "Temarc" and raises his finger he is acknowledging that his first officer has a different opinion (which apparently includes leaving). Then a split second later, the captain stands and says "The river Temarc" saying that there is nothing the first officer can do about it. When Picard speaks to the first officer he says: "Temarc, the river Temarc in winter." Basically he is saying there was a division (caused by the Enterprise firing on the Tamarians) and asks for patience. I do not think he is demanding the first officer to quiet down but attempting to explain he has gained understanding/the objective was achieved. 08:36, August 14, 2014 (UTC) :None of that is indicated by . 31dot (talk) 09:12, August 14, 2014 (UTC) Temba, his arms wide/open I don't think these mean the same thing. I understood it to mean "Temba, his arms open"=offering "Temba, his arms wide"=requesting/accepting. * When picard offers the captains log as a gift, he says "Temba, his arms open" * When Picard asks for Dathon to keep talking, he says "Temba, his arms wide" * When Dathon tells picard to take the torch, he insists "Temba, his arms wide" as if to mean Picard should accept the torch as a gift. 19:13, January 23, 2015 (UTC) Where do the stories come from, I wonder? So how do the Tamarians tell their stories, particularly to children? There has to be some literal level of their language, even if it is only used with and among children. And the officers could have switched to child-language when they realized they weren't getting through. I am watching this episode for the first time and this is bothering me tremendously. Benkarnell (talk) 14:07, August 3, 2015 (UTC) :Plot questions should be asked at the Reference Desk as article talk pages are for discussing article changes only. That said, I don't believe it was ever explained. 31dot (talk) 23:43, August 3, 2015 (UTC) Removed It also may be presumed that Captain Picard may have accomplished the following 4 major feats in Star fleet history in regard to the Children of Tamar (Tamarian species): 1.First to hold a Tamarian Captains Log (TNG 5:E2) 2.First to be on record performing the ritual of fighting "Darmok at Jalad at Tanagra" with a Tamarian Captain. 3.First to effectively communicate successfully the language and MEANING of the Tamarians metaphors correctly in real time, describing the heroism and death of the Tamrian's captain stating "Shaka. When the walls fell." A statement that was accepted by the Tamarian star fleet. 4. Picard was added to Tamarian history of events "Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel" (TNG S5:E2 Darmok). "Presumed," "Star fleet," and obviously unformatted. Most of this is speculation, and not really about the language, more about how cool Picard is. - 18:58, September 4, 2019 (UTC) The Language of Darmok (Sfdebris and Atlantic) Sfdebris shows in his "The Language of Darmok" (sadly not available as of this writing) for the Tamarian language that "metaphor" is likely not what is really going on by using Chinese as an example. He explains that in Chinese "China" is two characters (one meaning "Jade" the other "Walls Surrounding") and the Translator does a word by word translation. So instead of of "China" it would produce the somewhat nonsensical "Jade surrounded by walls" or "Walls surrounding Jade". The Atlantic's "Shaka, When the Walls Fell" states "But there’s a problem: Metaphor and image are not accurate descriptions of the Tamarian language’s logic. A metaphor takes one thing as a symbol for something else: Juliet’s balcony acts as a figure for romance,..." and presents allegory as a solution (which fits Sfdebris' theory regarding the language).--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:15, December 6, 2019 (UTC)